Comments on caroville:blog: innocence.

Thanks for the link. It's always good to see what...

2004-06-17T04:11:00.000+02:00

Thanks for the link. It's always good to see what is going on in other countries to. I agree that our system doesn't as much rehabilitate as just cast them off to a dark corner.

for more on rehabilitation in prison in the us: ht...

2004-06-14T12:51:00.000+02:00

for more on rehabilitation in prison in the us:
http://trends.csg.org/attachments/inmate_rehabilitation.pdf

maybe it might make a return in the us, after all. positive article, i think.

lol, didn't want to "get you", maybe just rock you...

2004-06-14T08:10:00.000+02:00

lol, didn't want to "get you", maybe just rock your view a little. :)
as to rehabilitation, that's a combination of "philosophy" about crime, and how society should react to it, and actual things happening to prisoners. i'll try my best to explain (it'll end up being overly simplistic, but bear with me).

philosophy. the general belief expressed through our legal system and our courts is that people deserve a few chances and that no one is lost to society because he broke the law.
for once, that's obvious in sentencing. for an adult, the worst sentence one can get is life, which in effect means 15 years in prison. someone *can* be locked up for "life" though (in forensic psychiatry, not a prison), but that is reserved for offenders whose crimes were sexual or sexually oriented, and who do not react to therapy and needs to be especially evaluated.
juveniles are treated as juveniles, always. you're a juvenile until you're 18, and if you're immature, you're treated as a juvenile until you're 21.

effects. in our prisons (even though those face many similar issues, such as overcrowding, as those in the us), there's work for everyone (better than outside!), juveniles get actual work training or schooling to serve them outside. there's therapy for those who need it.
there are victim relief programs which make the offender face what he did, and the victim, too(happens esp. for violent crime/physical injury).

this makes it sound as if germany is prison heaven, which i don't think it is either, and this is not common knowledge, but what i learned in law school by a local da (we law students are not allowed to visit prisons anymore though). it's still "hard" to be in prison i think, and i personally don't think prison is always a good choice for juveniles, for example. i reckon there is always a risk that they come out worse than before.
we have many problems here, too, and the government is pondering privatising prisons, which i oppose, totally.

i just think the general approach taken here is a bit more sane. better than killing people, allowing rats in their cells and rotten meat in their food. it's simply different from the " a jury found you're guilty, now we, the society, throw you away."

and that's good, i think.

I wish I knew enough law to make a good argument, ...

2004-06-14T04:16:00.000+02:00

I wish I knew enough law to make a good argument, but you've got me. Our is system is faulty in some respects. Yeah, I think it is sad that through the system's failings there are innocent people locked up. What does your governement do for rehabilitation?

thanks for replying again. it's a good point that ...

2004-06-11T08:38:00.000+02:00

thanks for replying again. it's a good point that you are making there, stefan. you are right, being able to be critical of a system is what it's all about.

to me, from afar, it does seem though, as if a case like that of the wm3 is actually an indication that some things are faulty about the us justice system or need some looking at.

for example: the first round of appeals being done by the same judge who oversaw the first trial; payment of court appointed defense counsel; rules of evidence; trying juveniles as adults and well, the death penalty in general.

i also have some general doubts about jury trials, coming from a country where we do not have them (we have laypeople in our courts though, their number depending on the court and kind of trial, and their verdict counts as much as that of the judge), but i do understand the historical and whatever reasons as to why the us has that system. it seems to me that the jury system turns a criminal trial into a sympathy show; it turns the case into a drama, the da and defense counsel into actors. it all starts to depend on timing and who puts on the better scenes.

in the wm3 case, two things were especially fowl in that regard: the da used a knife (that most likely was not involved in the crime in the first place) on a grapefruit in front of a jury in final arguments to demonstrate what kind of marks it left (bogus science, anyone?). also, the victims bikes were brought in as evidence (which was okay), but left in front of the jury for the entire time of the crime. good grace, that should simply not be allowed in a court room, ever.

from afar, it also seems as if criminal justice in the us still focuses on "revenge". round here, it's more about rehabilitating people (even though in the last few years, there has been a movement that recognised that that is not always possible and that society needs to be protected from people who can not be rehabilitated).

had the wm3 case happened here, i think that they not only would not have been found guilty, even if they would have, they would have been treated as the juveniles they were, and the maximum sentence would have been over by now. - but damien, jason and jessie are still in prison in the us, as innocent men.

anyway.

so yeah, i don't think that all is wrong with the us justice system, and many us supporters of the wm3 have said that they do not think this might have happened in a big city, outside the south. - so i'd say that even if the system works reasonably well overall, the existence of these "pockets of bigotry" (as you so excellently called them) gives enough to worry about.

Sorry about the late response. I was going to say...

2004-06-11T03:12:00.000+02:00

Sorry about the late response. I was going to say that I think in general that these little pockets of bigotry are not good representations of the entire justice system in the United States. Usually these ideas form when there is less access to everything. I'm not afraid of what will happen. I think as long we have the ability to be critical about our system, atrocities will be less likely to occur. The media attention of those photos of Iraqi prisoners is a good example of that.

thanks for checking out their website. i recommen...

2004-06-09T09:23:00.000+02:00

thanks for checking out their website.

i recommend "devil's knot" by mara levitt on the case as well. finished it in two days.
unbelievable, on so many levels. outrageous. the whole trial was manipulated by a judge who had his opinion formed already and who systematically prevented essential evidence that would have been enough basis for reasonable doubt from being heard by the jury.

caro, thanks for posting this. I wouldn't even be ...

2004-06-08T19:04:00.000+02:00

caro, thanks for posting this. I wouldn't even be aware of this if I hadn't read it here. I'm poring over the wm3.org site to learn more. If I come to the same conclusions you can bet they'll have my support.

Also "homo homini lupus est" is true but like many other things it is not the only truth. Endeavor to Persevere.

-VZ

thanks for your comment, stefan. how does that mak...

2004-06-03T13:58:00.000+02:00

thanks for your comment, stefan. how does that make you feel?

it scares me, seeing that with this kind of injustice at home, the us is exporting "justice" all over the place.
i shouldn't be surprised, really, considering the whole deal with the international criminal court and all, but still. bad stuff, i reckon

I live in a small community in the United States, ...

2004-05-30T00:54:00.000+02:00

I live in a small community in the United States, and I could also see it happen here. People have a different sense of how to judge people. Some are not very well educated and base their truths on assumptions that are not logically valid. They also don't quite understand the idea of "innocent until proven guilty". I could also see the police force jump to certain conclusions that have no real evidence.

postscriptum:i guess i am an idealist at heart, st...

2004-05-22T08:20:00.000+02:00

postscriptum:i guess i am an idealist at heart, still being surprised by evil and injustice in people.
but i shouldn't. if i stop and think for a minute, nothing about this injustice is surprising at all, apart from the total lack of conscience on the "justice"/community side of things here, maybe.
i couldn't sleep last night, again, and ended up watching cnn, again, and those new abuse photos, featuring aforementioned prison guard, charles graner, kept me awake. it's nto even shock anymore. it's rage that i feel. anger. rage.

oh yeah, that quaint old geneva convention. has the us led world gone insane, or is it just that "homo homini lupus est" is true, after all?